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Vallee D'Obermann

 
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cziffra



Joined: 22 Jul 2007
Posts: 97

PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 12:03 am    Post subject: Vallee D'Obermann Reply with quote

Hi,

I'm afraid the image quality isn't too brilliant here (and neither is the sound), but I'd love to hear your thoughts on how this looks, if you have time. I can still see a number of major lapses (most notably on the final chord) where an excess of 'following through' is hugely weakening the structure, but I can see that the knuckles are definitely starting to work quite well (and allow complete stillness) on some of the chords. There are a lot of places where I'm gripping after a chord has sounded, rather than firming up properly in the first place- but presumably this is the way to go about reaching the stage of being able to get there in the first place, in the long run(?). Before, I used to follow through on virtually every single note, especially in simple melodies. I can see it happening more than I thought still, but hopefully it's on the way out.


http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6079034452439041205

I've been hugely influenced by a rather raw but remarkable performance by Nyiregyhazi (which clocks in at over 20 minutes). I'm afraid that my opening doesn't sustain even half as well as his considerably slower version, but if you can tolerate the tempo then any thoughts would be most welcome.

Cheers,

Andrew
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Eric



Joined: 13 Aug 2008
Posts: 110

PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2009 10:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi,

While waiting for the Maestro's comment here are some spontaneous remarks as Nere%&dghazy and the Valley are among my favorites.

First you play beautifully the sound the touch and pedaling are exquisite the cantabile is there and I like your initial tempo. There is no reason why you couldn't slow down some parts much more-if you like it.

I would personally favor more dynamics you could do more of what you already do so to speak. On occasions play the p as ppp and ff as ffff. And maybe more differentiation, in some parts the base is to dominating and in other parts you could really go Berserk on the base-more of that raw sound you speak of.

Maybe more rythm here and there (you know I'm a ryhtmcop!) more accents especially in the end when the "caractere" changes. And there is a habit of ending rubato-phrases by emphasizing the last tone as well as extending the timelapse between the two last notes too much. Thats of course a matter of taste.

The whole piece is based on contrasting elements tempi rythm and dynamics should be pretty exaggerated and differentiated in my wiev.

I would use the wrist more keeping it (much) lower (which helps keeping up the arch and the relaxation of the forearm) especially in those octave-passages.

Otherwise I really liked this fine interpretation of one of Liszt's top five pieces.

Best regards
Eric
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alan fraser
The Expert on Piano Technique


Joined: 22 Jul 2006
Posts: 696
Location: Novi Sad, Serbia

PostPosted: Mon May 11, 2009 11:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Many beautiful things in this! Really exquisite tonal colour a lot of the time, creating an atmosphere of really gripping expression.

The physical aspects very difficult to comment on. Many things look good but as you say, some aspects are still in development.

I SEE your looseness a little too much. This means that you are sometimes coming to a note or chord overly loose and thus out of alignment. You use that looseness to get beautiful, exact control of tone on the note or chord, and then firm up your structure, thus allowing yourself to go on. However all this process is a little too complicated in terms of function - it is too time-consuming and thus your interpretation acquires a slightly plodding feel. I, unlike Eric, found the opening tempo too slow, but perhaps tempo was not so much the problem as failure to carry the line...

I would like the looseness to be a little more an internal feeling and a little less an externally visible phenomenon. This would allow your structure to be more consistently THERE for you, available and empowering. It will take some savvy for you to find a firmer-looking hand on the board without losing the wonderful flexibility and physical sensitivity that is giving you so much in terms of music and sound, but I think it will pay off.

Thanks for sharing that with us!

AFF
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cziffra



Joined: 22 Jul 2007
Posts: 97

PostPosted: Mon Jun 15, 2009 11:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

alan fraser wrote:
Many beautiful things in this! Really exquisite tonal colour a lot of the time, creating an atmosphere of really gripping expression.

The physical aspects very difficult to comment on. Many things look good but as you say, some aspects are still in development.

I SEE your looseness a little too much. This means that you are sometimes coming to a note or chord overly loose and thus out of alignment. You use that looseness to get beautiful, exact control of tone on the note or chord, and then firm up your structure, thus allowing yourself to go on. However all this process is a little too complicated in terms of function - it is too time-consuming and thus your interpretation acquires a slightly plodding feel. I, unlike Eric, found the opening tempo too slow, but perhaps tempo was not so much the problem as failure to carry the line...

I would like the looseness to be a little more an internal feeling and a little less an externally visible phenomenon. This would allow your structure to be more consistently THERE for you, available and empowering. It will take some savvy for you to find a firmer-looking hand on the board without losing the wonderful flexibility and physical sensitivity that is giving you so much in terms of music and sound, but I think it will pay off.

Thanks for sharing that with us!

AFF


Sorry for not having replied before. Many thanks for having a look! Regarding the tempo, I agree that the opening doesn't really work - (certainly not as well as Nyiregyhazi's even slower tempo). I want to try it on a decent grand sometime, to see if I can get more sense of continuity when more sustain is available. If that doesn't work, I'll certainly move it on a bit more though.

I've recently set up a mirror beside my piano, which is providing a great deal of help. I'm still having to make a lot of adjustments after having struck chords, but now that I have a constant source of feedback during practise, it seems to be progressing more quickly. I've also noticed that my right wrist has a tendency to rise a great deal, which is gradually improving, now I can see when it happens.

Did you see my post in response to the piano masterstopic about Cziffra and the arm-weight school etc, by the way? I'd be really interested to hear what you think, if you have time to take a look. It's regarding a few things about armweight that I don't entirely follow still. I'm not sure if I have misinterpreted some of your ideas, but (despite the tremendous benefits I have received from your advice about function within the hand) I am wondering whether you perhaps go a little too far in downplaying the very real benefits of gravity? Anyway, I went into a lot more detail on the specifics of what I was thinking about in that other post.

Andrew

PS. Also, thanks for your thoughts Eric. I agree with many of your points there.
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